#035 | Conscious Disruptors Terri Daniel & Brian D. Smith

Welcome to a deep dive into one of the most thought-provoking episodes of "Life with Ghosts: Let’s Chat". In this episode, host Stephen Berkeley is joined by Dr. Terri Daniel and Brian D. Smith for a candid, honest, sometimes challenging, and always fascinating conversation about spirituality in times of crisis. The heart of the discussion: Should spiritual communities speak up on urgent matters like social injustice, human rights, and political turmoil—or is their role to remain a neutral refuge from the chaos?

Introduction

“Life with Ghosts: Let’s Chat” isn’t just about afterlife communication—it's also about exploring what it truly means to live (and love) as spiritual beings, right in the heart of the world's messiest situations.

In this episode, host Stephen Berkeley welcomes listeners with warmth and a bit of the familiar chaos that Zoom-based community events often bring (including tasty salads and barking dogs). The main question of the night is bold and honest:

“Should spiritual communities speak out on social injustice, or does that turn our sacred space into an ideological one?”

It’s clear from the very start that this is a safe space for challenging conversations, and that Stephen is willing to step outside his comfort zone. This is one of those shows you’ll want to sit with, even as it stirs up tough emotions and uncomfortable questions.

Meet the Guests: Dr. Terri Daniel and Brian D. Smith

Dr. Terri Daniel and Brian D. Smith aren’t just experts—they’re familiar, compassionate human beings with long experience in both spiritual and activist circles.

Dr. Terri Daniel

• Founder of the Afterlife Conference

• Teaches death studies and chaplaincy at three universities

• Chaplain and grief counselor at hospices in Oregon

• Known for her strong stances on grief, religious trauma, and sacred activism

Brian D. Smith

• Certified life coach and grief guide

• Host of the popular podcast “Grief 2 Growth”

• Works to help people turn loss into new beginnings

• Deeply influenced by the civil rights struggle and his own family’s legacy

Both guests bring diverse backgrounds—personal, academic, and historical. As you’ll see, their ideas and their candid storytelling make for a rich conversation.

Spirituality and Social Justice: Where’s the Line?

The conversation opens on the question that resonates through all spiritual communities: Are we here only for personal peace, or do we have a responsibility to speak up for others?

Terri Daniel introduces her recent focus on “sacred activism,” a term she borrows from Andrew Harvey. She describes a shift in her own practice: moving from a focus on the metaphysical and the transcendent to including issues of human rights and suffering—not just in private, but on public platforms like newsletters and social media.

She shares that this hasn’t been easy. When she started talking about activism, she got real pushback:

“A lot of spiritual people feel that we are above this ego-based materialist world where all this crap happens and that we should just concentrate on transcendence.”

But Daniel’s core message is that, if we’re truly coming from love and light, we can’t ignore suffering:

“You don’t deprive people of aid when they need it. You don’t deprive people of education and opportunity. You don’t deprive people of food and medicine and freedom.”

Brian D. Smith echoes this, adding his personal experience as a Black man whose very freedoms were secured by prior generations willing to fight and speak out.

Sacred Activism: The Call to Action

Sacred activism means engaging in social justice work from a place of deep spiritual conviction and love. Rather than seeing activism as “taking sides,” it roots action in compassion, inclusivity, and a recognition of our interconnectedness.

“If we are spiritual...if we’re coming from divine love, spiritual love, light, it’s about inclusion, treating people, animals, other life forms with dignity, loving your neighbor...whatever language you want to use for that doesn’t take sides.”

Daniel invites us to rise above political tribalism—even as we get our hands dirty “in the trenches.” Smith points out that even if activism costs you followers, friends, or business, authenticity and responsibility matter more:

“I do have a voice, and I feel like I have a responsibility...Not all people are beyond being able to hear what I have to say.”

Pushback and the Comfort Zone

Sacred activism is not always popular or comfortable. Both guests detail the pushback they’ve received:

• Unsubscribes and negative feedback from newsletter readers

• Criticisms from spiritual followers who wanted only “peaceful” or “transcendent” content

• The personal challenge of risking popularity, influence, or income by speaking out

Terri Daniel asks herself, “Am I willing to lose followers by being honest about my beliefs?”—and decides yes, she is.

Brian Smith agrees: after all, if past generations hadn’t risked their own safety and comfort to speak up, he wouldn’t have the rights he has today.

Transcendence vs. “Being in the Trenches”

One of the night’s big themes is the difference between detachment and non-attachment. The guests are clear: true spirituality doesn’t mean checking out or feeling nothing. It means “being in the world, but not destroyed by it.”

“Detachment means imperviousness...I can watch children being murdered and I feel nothing. Non-attachment is, I can watch children be murdered and I can act and be involved and it doesn’t destroy me.”

Daniel, whose daily work puts her in contact with death, grief, and suffering, insists you can deeply engage with the world’s pain without becoming hopeless. Non-attachment is the practice of feeling and acting—without being consumed or incapacitated.

Responsibility, Rights, and Real-World Impact

Both guests ground their activism in real, basic needs and rights:

• Food

• Education

• Medicine

• Safety

• Bodily autonomy

Smith calls for a basic ethic:

“Let people live, allow people to have as good a life as they possibly can...People have a right to vote. People have a right to health care. People have a right to food.”

Daniel highlights the domino effect when rights and freedoms are threatened—pointing to attacks on academic freedom, access to aid, education, and even freedom of religion.

This isn’t theoretical: both see events in present-day America as directly affecting real lives.

The Non-Attachment Debate

Nothing divides spiritual communities faster than the “Are you above it, or in the muck with us?” question.

Jesus, Ram Dass, and non-attachment: The conversation brings up teachers like Ram Dass, Krishnamurti, and even Jesus. For Brian Smith, who was raised Christian (but is no longer), the role of the spiritual leader isn’t to stay detached. Jesus, he says, “didn’t just sit back and let things happen.”

Daniel draws the distinction again:

• Detachment: “None of this touches me.”

• Non-attachment: “I can be involved and do what’s right, but I don’t have to be destroyed by it.”

The key is not to retreat from the world, but to participate with spiritual strength.

Waking Up from the Dream: Is This Reality or Illusion?

During Q&A, a listener brings up Paul Levy’s book “The Quantum Revelation”, which suggests we’re living in a collective dream. Smith and Daniel offer practical responses:

• Yes, spiritual traditions call this “Maya” or “illusion”—but that’s not an excuse to turn our backs on suffering.

• Even if what happens here is “dream-like,” it still matters while we’re here.

Smith puts it clearly:

“When you’re dreaming at night...what happens to you in that dream matters while you’re in the dream. Now, when you wake up...it no longer matters to you, but when you’re in the dream it matters very much.”

Daniel adds, “We still have to take care of the body...Being in this body is a responsibility.”

When Spiritual Becomes Political

Is it possible to talk about justice, rights, and suffering without being political? The guests say: It’s messy, but politics is simply how our shared values get expressed.

“Spiritual isn’t church and activism isn’t state...Politics is how I express my spirituality.”

They make it clear:

• Partisanship (tribal loyalty to a party) isn’t the point.

• Real spirituality is about values—and these become public through laws, systems, and collective decisions.

• You can’t separate the two if you care about the fate of the collective.

Daniel notes: “Let’s go back to a basic spiritual concept: it’s all one. We created all of this. We created politics. You cannot separate it.”

What’s at Stake? Rights, Freedom, and the Big Issues

Both guests tackle the issues that haunt them most, without dodging specifics.

Brian D. Smith's Big Issues

• Voting rights

• Access to health care

• Food security

• Bodily autonomy

• The right to live and pursue happiness

He jokes that at first he thought he was a libertarian—just “let people do what they want as long as it doesn’t hurt others”—but realized the importance of collective structures to ensure those rights are guaranteed.

Dr. Terri Daniel's Big Issues

• Academic freedom (“What’s going on with Harvard right now just makes my blood boil”)

• Freedom of thought and religion

• Protecting education at all levels

• Opposing the imposition of specific religions in public spaces (schools, research)

• Social support—assistance for the poor, sick, and veterans

Daniel sums up:

“It doesn’t matter what side you’re on...For the sake of all human beings to love and worship God any way they want. A particular religious doctrine should not be forced into public schools. Or, if one is, then they should all be taught equally.”

Sacred Activism: History and Inspiration

Daniel credits Andrew Harvey with popularizing the term “sacred activism”. Harvey, who spoke at Daniel’s Afterlife Conference, argues for a spirituality that engages directly with injustice and suffering. Not all conference-goers welcomed his approach; many, she jokes, would rather “see the mediums” than hear about human rights.

But Harvey’s challenging message seems to have planted a seed.

Brian D. Smith's influences include:

• Jesus

• Martin Luther King, Jr.

• Malcolm X

• His own grandfather (a pastor and activist)

• C.S. Lewis

• Bernardo Kastrup (on consciousness and the “dream world” view)

Daniel, too, is influenced by a wide range of thinkers, but always pulls the conversation back to action and responsibility.

Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism

Daniel urges readers to explore “Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism” by Tibetan Buddhist Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. In the 1970s, at the height of the “hang out in your yoga pants” spirituality era, Trungpa warned that spiritual practice can become just another form of ego or consumerism.

“If everybody’s competing for how many hours a day do I meditate, or who wears the best yoga pants...that’s just another form of materialism.”

She shares a story of the Tibetan monks at Disneyland, delighting in the fun just like anyone else. The point? It’s OK to be in the world—to laugh, to engage, to act—and not take your spirituality too seriously.

Risks, Rewards, and Authenticity

A recurring question: Is it worth the risk?

• Both Daniel and Smith have lost followers, subscribers, and possibly income by taking stands.

• For Daniel: “The people who don’t want to come along with me on this journey, that’s fine.”

• For Smith: “I have to be myself. Too many people fought too hard to get me where I am.”

Both say it’s about being able to look at themselves in the mirror—and honoring the legacy of those who used their own voices for change.

Closing Thoughts

If there’s one thing this episode proves, it’s that spiritual communities are made up of real people wrestling with real, complicated issues. No one is above the mess, and no one is immune to the pain and confusion that come with living through times of crisis.

But:

• We can be non-attached without being detached.

• We can speak up—even when it’s unpopular.

• We can hold space for pain, loss, and confusion, and look for ways to help.

• We can teach from our own experiences—not from a place of superiority but from basic human solidarity.

“If we are spiritual, and we’re coming from divine love, spiritual love, light, it’s about inclusion—treating people, animals, other life forms with dignity, loving your neighbor. Whatever language you use for that—doesn’t take sides.”

If you’re wrestling with your own place in all of this, you’re not alone. The journey is messy, the answers are incomplete, and the conversations are only just starting.

“We’re all in this body together and we can’t separate from it.”